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Al-Ahram Weekly 1 - 7 April 1999 Issue No. 423 
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Published in Cairo by AL-AHRAM established in 1875 |
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Al-Ahram Weekly 1 - 7 April 1999 Issue No. 423
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| Published in Cairo by AL-AHRAM established in 1875 |
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Egypt Region International Economy Opinion Culture Focus Interview Profile Features Travel Living Sports People Time Out Chronicles Cartoons Letters Marriage, politics and Jerusalem
In an exclusive interview, Pope Shenouda III speaks frankly to Al-Ahram Weekly about the national role of the Church, the new draft Personal Status law, and other controversial issues
Several years of negotiations between the various Christian denominations in Egypt culminated recently in an agreed text for a unified personal status bill that should soon be brought before the People's Assembly. The difficulty of assessing the bill's proposals stems from the fact that so little is known about them. Speaking to Al-Ahram Weekly, Pope Shenouda said, "We are sticking by the Bible's teachings on marriage and divorce -- especially divorce. The Bible states in four different places that divorce is permissible only in the case of adultery. We will abide by the teachings of our religion. Christianity also allows separation, in the case of difference of religion." The Pope's reluctance to encourage debate on this issue was underlined as he added, "When the issue is a strictly religious one, there is no space for people to express a personal opinion."
In Pope Shenouda's opinion, the fact that the personal status bill was drafted by the heads of the various denominations is in itself a guarantee of its essential soundness. "It is not possible that they are all ignorant of their religion, and that they would have to wait on the opinions of non-specialists," he commented.
The proposed bill, which will be binding on Christians of all denominations, will replace the array of codes dating back to 1938 which previously regulated matters of marriage and divorce for each denomination separately. In Pope Shenouda's view, this unification of the different churches' positions will facilitate the task of the judiciary. In the future, judges will not have to go rummaging through a whole pile of laws to locate the relevant dispositions, but will be able to refer to a single source of authority.
Among those existing provisions that are to be changed is the curious stipulation that when the husband belongs to one denomination and the wife to another, the judge has to rule in accordance with Islamic Shari'a. The Pope argued that while the church has nothing against the Shari'a, he does not see why it should be applied to a Christian couple, just because the husband, for instance, is a Greek Orthodox while his wife is Coptic.
The Pope told the Weekly that the bill will not simply unify the positions of the various Christian denominations, but also has the virtue of effecting "a reconciliation between the rulings handed down by the judiciary and the Church's teachings. When a judge pronounces a sentence that is at variance with the Church's position, this creates a conflict between the Church and the state."
But while in some ways this unified front on family law represents a major step forward, it will also create new disincentives for those seeking to escape an unhappy marriage. In particular, once the new bill becomes law, spouses seeking divorce will have to convert to a different religion altogether, and not simply to another Christian denomination, as is the case at present. However, the Pope does not see this measure as a major problem, partly because he does not believe that the "problem" of divorce is as big as it has been made out to be in the first place. The claim reported in certain quarters that there are as many as 50,000 Egyptian Christians presently seeking divorce "is an allegation that has no basis," he told the Weekly. "The cases that come to us can be counted in dozens, not hundreds -- and certainly not thousands!"
The Pope also argued that the position of the Coptic Church with regard to these matters is much less harsh than that of the Roman Catholic Church, which prohibits divorce under all circumstances (but tolerates annulment, for certain couples, after a long period of separation). In case of adultery, the Coptic Church grants a divorce and allows the "innocent" party the right to remarry. The category of adultery, according to Pope Shenouda, also includes homosexual relationships, because love between members of the same sex "is an immoral and abnormal act." In addition to the cases where divorce is possible, there are also dispositions which allow for a marriage to be annulled for certain specific reasons, such as male impotence.
For Pope Shenouda, the whole debate about divorce tends to put the cart before the horse. He believes that one of the main reasons many couples end up seeking a divorce is because people fail to choose their partner wisely in the first place. This is where the Church can be of most use, in preventing such mismatches, not in effecting a singularly destructive and painful form of cure. In this context, the Pope emphasised the importance of mutual compatibility and the need to make the most of the engagement period to get to know the other person. Such precautions are always relevant, whatever the context. After all, added the Pope, the Church can hardly be held responsible if "a woman who has turned 30 gets scared she will miss the boat, and ends up marrying just anyone."
'The Church is not involved in politics. Indeed, it does not have time for politics. It has other responsibilities. But, at the same time, it has a national and civic duty. The Church is bound by loyalty and love to this country'
With Pope Shenouda, Dr Mounir Azmi, member of the Church's general community council (left) and Melek Mina, rapporteur on the committee for the formulation of the draft personal status law for Christians
Thus the Coptic Church is presently considering a project for a "marriage school, where young single men and women can learn about engagement, and how to behave after marriage and how to solve problems, so that they don't end up descending into violence or having to come before the courts. We haven't established this school yet, but we have organised seminars. Priests are supposed to visit families regularly, as well, and they have a role to play in conflict resolution," he added.
The Pope lashed out at "those who have invented various justifications for divorce, who are just latching on to reasons that are not a part of religion and its teachings. Some people want to make religion subservient to their personal interests and do not want to submit themselves to the rules of religion." He also said that some people want to use religion to legitimise "their lusts and desires, when religion is meant to restrain these lusts and desires. They want the church to approve a second marriage for them, but we consider this to be illegitimate. Some people think that a second marriage is the solution, but it is not," he said.
Certain critics have objected to the new personal status bill, claiming that it violates basic human rights, because it effectively restricts the right of conversion from one Christian denomination to another. Pope Shenouda, however, asserted that everyone is free to change his or her denomination or religion provided that this is done out of conviction and not convenience. He added that these allegations were groundless. "We respect human rights," he declared, "and they are fully guaranteed in the new bill -- provided they cause no harm. It is the human right of divorced Christians to remarry, but it is also our right to say that we, as a Church, reject this right because it is not compatible with our teachings."
The legislation enacted more than half a century ago licenses divorce in case of adultery as well as in seven other cases. Speaking to the Weekly, Pope Shenouda dismissed the 1938 law out of hand, on the grounds that it had been drafted by people who were not religious experts, but were merely acting in accordance with their own personal convictions. He also pointed out that the existing law had never won the approval of the Church authorities.
Some lay members view the 1938 code as a progressive law, because it authorised divorce in cases of domestic violence, for example. Although the Pope reiterated to the Weekly his condemnation of domestic violence, he insisted that it was still not adequate grounds for divorce, recommending instead "temporary separation, until the reasons behind the problem are solved. We have to look into the reasons why the husband is acting in this way," he said.
Of course, there will always be cases in which the violence will not cease, even when the reasons behind it have been fully exposed. Nevertheless, Pope Shenouda is adamant that divorce is not the solution: "If a son is beaten by his father, can he make him stop being his father? It is the same thing. A wife is bound to her husband. She can separate from him, but she cannot stop him from being her husband."
Pope Shenouda is above all convinced that if divorce "is made easy", then everyone will want one. As a result, people will start choosing their partners in a casual, offhand way, without understanding the seriousness of the commitment they are entering into.
Yet despite the fact that, to judge by its official pronouncements, the Coptic Church would seem to be growing more conservative in its attitudes towards divorce and marriage, there is no doubt that the church continues to play a pivotal role in the lives of Coptic Christians. This role, many feel, has grown in importance in step with the mounting religious conservatism of Egyptian society as a whole over the past two decades. The renewed centrality of the religious institutions also owes something to the growing feelings of apprehension among the Coptic community due to the rise of Islamic fundamentalism in society. While Pope Shenouda declined to comment on whether the Coptic community is becoming increasingly isolated, he nevertheless argued that "the majority in a society should accommodate the minority -- by which I mean the numerical minority -- but if the minority feels unaccepted....." He paused, then leaned forward to add: "What do you think of a People's Assembly that has 445 members and not a single elected Christian? You can argue that elections are free and people vote as they wish. But the Muslim voter is not choosing his Christian brother. At the time of Saad Zaghlul, a Christian would be elected in a predominantly Muslim electoral district and a Muslim would be elected in a district where the majority were Christians."
When asked how this change had come about, the Pope could only suggest that "the general atmosphere is different now." He added that what is needed is a "general atmosphere in which the other is accepted. I have urged Christians many times to participate in political life and they have done so. In the last elections, there were 70 [Christian] candidates, but none of them won seats. Psychologically, if a Christian feels that if he runs for election he will not win under any circumstances, he will refrain from participating. Politicians have to think of a way which would allow Christians who run for election to succeed. If Christians feel they have no chance of winning seats in the People's Assembly, the Shura Council, local councils and professional unions, we cannot hold them responsible. Society as a whole must bear the responsibility, and we must look for ways to deal with this."
For some years now, at general election time, churches would urge their congregations to vote and even provide them with voters' registration forms. The Pope pointed to the "obstacles that Christians face just in order to get their names registered as voters. God knows the difficulties they go through and how frustrating it is," he said.
More generally, the Pope spoke of the obstacles that are faced by Christians and Muslims alike. "I suggested that the voting cards or registration be based on either place of birth, employment or residence. It is unrealistic that someone who hails from Upper Egypt and is now living in Cairo has to go back to vote there or to get a voting card. This is an obstacle faced by both Muslims and Christians."
Returning to the theme of the need for a change in "the general atmosphere," the Pope spoke of the importance of adopting policies that foster a sense of unity among Egyptians. "I would like to emphasise the importance of interaction among Christians and Muslims in all areas, not just on the political level, but on all levels... Even as children, they must play together," he said. In education, for example, the Pope has called for the introduction of an ethics class into the curriculum. "As secondary school students 60 years ago, we took courses in national education and ethics. In ethics, there is no difference between Christianity and Islam."
But progress in education depends on more than just having the right curriculum. The teachers who lead the classes are vital to the success of any programme. "The problem is, we don't have Christian teachers who are qualified to teach religion," the Pope observed. "I suggested to the minister of education that the Church be allowed to organise training programmes for Christian teachers who are commissioned to teach religion. For it happens that a geography or chemistry teacher is assigned to teach religion just because he is a Christian. There is also a problem due to some of the fundamentalists, who instil wrong ideas in children's minds. It is the general atmosphere that needs reform -- not just the curricula, but also the teacher, and the whole pedagogical environment."
One of the problems, which according to the Pope, runs counter to the fight against extremism in Egypt is the unregulated freedom enjoyed by book publishers. The situation is very different from that which obtained in the early days of the 1952 Revolution. "Now anybody can write what they want, however dangerous it is. The publications of a man who was condemned to death under Gamal Abdel-Nasser are today being sold in bookstores bearing the name of this 'martyr'... We do not criticise anyone for being committed to their religion. But commitment is one thing, fanaticism another, and violence and crime yet another again."
Which brings us to the recent incidents in the village of Al-Kosheh in Upper Egypt. "I was out of the country when the incidents took place," Pope Shenouda told the Weekly. "In Al-Kosheh, which is a predominantly Christian village, there are no bad feelings between Christians and Muslims. There were, however, some violations committed by the police. The international press raised the issue and national newspapers responded by a flood of articles, all defensively stating that in Egypt there is no discrimination against Copts. Yet the church had not said that the incident was related to religion. So why did the Egyptian press have to spend so much time insisting that it was not so connected? Had the press reported the violations committed by the police from the very outset, the issue would not have got out of hand in the way it did."
Responding to accusations that the Coptic Church itself is playing an increasingly active role in the internal politics of the country, the Pope said: "I distinguish between political activity and civic activity. The Church is not involved in politics. Indeed, it does not have time for politics. It has other responsibilities. But, at the same time, it has a national and civic duty. The Church is bound by loyalty and love to this country and to the [Arab] region. We [the Church] perform our national role without getting involved in politics. We openly encourage people to participate in elections and we consider it a national duty. All men of religion are citizens who have voting cards which they must use to express their opinion. How can I decline to vote, on the grounds that I am not a professional politician? That would be irrational. Expressing an opinion and working in politics are two different things."
The distinction between being politically active and expressing an opinion on a political issue is one that does not only apply to domestic politics, as Pope Shenouda sought to make clear. "If someone comes to me and inquires about the Palestinian issue, should I not answer him? Indeed I should, out of my national conscience, but without getting into politics." The Pope has repeatedly spoken out in favour of the rights of the Palestinians and against Israeli aggression. The Coptic Church has its own quarrel with Israel, dating back to 1970 when Israeli authorities turned over the Coptic Deir Al-Sultan Monastery in Jerusalem to the Ethiopian Church. "The Israeli Supreme Constitutional Court ruled in our favour, but the Israeli government clung to its position, and began arguing with the Constitutional Court's decision, as if it could be a subject for discussion, just as they always do -- as when they debate the implementation of UN resolutions that are not supposed to be up for discussion."
Since the signing of the Egyptian-Israeli peace treaty 20 years ago, the Pope has banned Copts from visiting Jerusalem. This position has angered some Copts, who believe that the Pope is confusing spirituality with politics. Pope Shenouda once said, "We will not enter Jerusalem again, until we go hand-in-hand with our Muslim and Arab brothers."
There are many who believe that the Pope is too apt to meddle in politics in comparison with his predecessor, who kept a low profile in the nation's public life. Pope Shenouda can happily entertain an audience for hours on end, speaking eloquently in his perfect classical Arabic. The present Pope is also well-known for his great sense of humour. In the middle of a conversation, he will stop and laugh, having just remembered a joke he would like to share.
Points of contrast aside, Pope Shenouda has been hailed as "the Patriarch of the Arabs" outside Egypt. In Lebanon and Syria, for example, he enjoys a popularity which transcends the divisions between religious denominations. Asked how he feels to be the subject of such contrasting views, he laughed and replied simply that he cannot please everyone. Then he cited this phrase from the Bible: "They are like children sitting in the marketplace, with some complaining to others: We played the flute for you but you would not dance. We sang a funeral song but you would not cry!"
Yet the contradictions in his own public image are perhaps the least of those the Pope has to grapple with. The contrast between a Church which has broken with the past to encourage its followers to play an active role in political life and a church which is widely seen as promoting a new social and moral conservatism continues to provoke reactions, not only in the context of the new personal status bill, but also in relation to the Church's general position on women. For many women feel that they are denied equal rights by the Church not only in their family life, but right across the board. However Pope Shenouda, speaking to the Weekly, denied that the Church had become more conservative on women's issues. He pointed out that he himself has consecrated many nuns and deaconesses, as well as granting women the right to study at the theological seminary. However, leadership positions, such as membership of the Communal Council, would still seem to be largely closed to the fair sex. Is this an accident?
"Before I became Pope, there were no women on the Council," said Pope Shenouda. "Now there are two." And how many councillors are there altogether? "Twenty four," he replied. Then he smiled and asked, "What do you want? A whole council made up of women?"
Interview by Hosny Guindy, Hani Shukrallah
and Mariz Tadros
