17 - 23 May 2001
Issue No.534
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Al-Ahram Weekly On-line 17 - 23 May 2001 Issue No.534 |
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The Warsaw pulse
Polish President Aleksander Kwasniewski represents a new generation of Eastern European politicians leading their countries towards market economies and parliamentary democracy. In an exclusive interview, Ibrahim Nafie quizzed the Polish president about the Middle East peace process, the Polish economic reform and privatisation programme and Poland's relations with the European Union, the United States and as a new member of NATO. Nafie also interviewed Polish Foreign Minister Wladyslaw Bartogewski
Polish Foreign Minister Wladyslaw Bartogewski confirmed that it was impossible to reach a political solution to the Middle East crisis without Egypt, pointing out that Poland strongly supports the Egyptian-Jordanian proposal to bring back the parties to the negotiating table. Poland will try its utmost to bring together the Palestinians and Israelis to revive the peace process. Poland's foreign minister said that the Israeli government lacks a clear political vision. He said that Polish membership in NATO was a dream come true and that Russia was no longer the Soviet Union.
Polish Foreign Minister Wladyslaw Bartogewski speaks to Ibrahim Nafie and accompanying Al-Ahram team
photos: Janek Skarzynski (AFP)
Bartogewski warmly welcomed Al-Ahram's mission and applauded the pivotal role Egypt plays in the regional and international arenas, noting that he has worked as a journalist in the past and has a keen interest in the Middle East. He said the ties of friendship between Egypt and Poland span three or four generations. Egyptian-Polish relations began to flourish soon after World War II in the political, economic and culture spheres. The war led many Poles to travel to Egypt in 1943 and their host country retains a fond memory to this day.
ON POLISH-EGYPTIAN TIES: After the war, a new generation of Poles went to Egypt as part of the rescue mission to save Nubian heritage which would soon be submerged under Lake Nasser. Numerous Poles are interested in Egyptology. When I first became foreign minister in March 1995, I embarked on a visit to Egypt to consolidate ties between our countries and returned a second time in December 2000. This came at a difficult time because of the bloody uprising in Palestine, the Intifada. I visited Jerusalem, Gaza and Cairo. I have also visited a number of Islamic capitals, including Tehran, Ankara and Tripoli. I want to emphasise that without Egypt there would be no political resolutions of conflicts in the Middle East.
Our relationship with Turkey comes only second to our ties with the US, our most powerful ally in NATO.
Poland has no problem with establishing close ties with Muslim countries and Warsaw is very interested in the affairs of the region. We have over 1,000 Arab students in Polish universities and nearly all Libyan pilots were trained in Poland. We have no political dispute with Libya, even though we do not always see eye to eye."
THE MIDDLE EAST AND POLAND: Today I feel rather pessimistic about the situation in the Middle East. I was far more optimistic one year ago. I told [former] Foreign Minister Amr Moussa so when we met last year. I briefed Moussa about my meeting with [Shimon] Peres, whom I had met the previous day. I know Peres well because he is of Polish origin. He was very frank during that encounter, saying that he was terrified because of the turn of events and the prime ministerial elections which were to take place in a few months. He feared Ariel Sharon's victory.
We also discussed Palestinian President Yasser Arafat's ability to contain the Intifada. There is a real problem, in that in a military situation an order can be issued to stop the fighting, but in a situation where a popular uprising is taking place, it is difficult to control the masses. Peres conceded that the way the Palestinians were dealing with the situation was not ideal and I conveyed this view to Moussa. Peres also believes that Egypt is more than capable of helping resolve the situation and is very worried that there will not be a way to resolve this conflict by political means. I do not think that the Israeli Foreign Minister is capable of achieving a political resolution either. I believe that muscle-flexing is a short-term solution. We are very concerned, but we will try to help as much as we can, although there are limits to what we can do. We would like to open a representative office in Gaza.
I would like to point out that I am a man whose views are carefully listened to in Israel. As a Christian during World War II, I saved the lives of many Polish Jews. They were my neighbours, friends and acquaintances. I have received the highest decoration from the State of Israel. Therefore, I am entitled to speak my mind and tell the Israelis candidly what I think about certain policies I do not approve of. I talk to the Israelis and listen to their views, but I make my stand clear. I speak frankly to United States officials as well. I also talk openly to the Palestinians. Did you know that Yasser Arafat studied here in Poland? Arafat studied in Poland before 1947, at the time many students from the Arab world, Africa and Asia came to Poland to study and discuss the issues of the day.
We know that each side puts forward reasonable proposals, but they are not entirely correct because although both sides are right when they say it is wrong to murder innocents, what makes the situation more difficult is that each side speaks of the innocent victims in his own camp and not the innocents in the other. Therefore, we get into a vicious circle. In the final analysis, I believe it is better to negotiate and talk instead of fighting and killing innocent people. The danger is that time is running out for talking.
We do not know how the Oslo agreement will be evaluated 50 years from now. In retrospect it may appear to be a golden opportunity from the Israeli point of view. But Oslo is a process that impacts both the Israelis and the Palestinians and both must feel good about it. Poland's position is clear. We do not want to condemn others. We want to play a constructive role, even if it appears slow-paced. We prefer practical rather than radical measures. We overthrew the communist regime by peaceful means. We abhor revolution and upheavals and that is the secret of our success in the post-Cold War period. This is also why we support the Egyptian-Jordanian initiative.
At the moment Poland is preoccupied with joining the European Union. This is our priority, the partnership with the EU. After we join the EU we will be in a better position to play a more positive role in issues pertaining the South and especially the Middle East.
POLISH FOREIGN POLICY: The Polish Foreign Office is where Polish foreign policy is decided. We had a difficult choice of either aligning ourselves with Moscow or with the West. And considering our geographical position between Russia and Western Europe it was a very difficult choice indeed. In 1989, our foreign minister at the time decided to move Poland closer to the West, and towards non-communist countries. It was at this time that I accompanied former Polish President Lech Walensa to Cairo in 1992. Polish foreign policy is not necessarily linked to the ruling party. Unlike Italy or France, where the foreign minister is changed when a new party comes to power, in Poland the foreign ministry remains intact regardless of which party is in power. Our foreign policy is based on what is widely perceived as Polish national interest and not on narrow party political interests. Our national interests dictate that we be on good terms with our powerful neighbours to the east, Russia, and to the West, Germany. We must cultivate close ties with all our neighbours and that has been the case for the past millennium.
In the immediate aftermath of World War II, we did not have an independent foreign policy; we followed Moscow's lead. Many Polish people resented that set-up, which was dependent on the former Soviet Union. The Polish people resisted Russian hegemony by various means. But we avoided staging a bloody revolt. In this respect I share the views of my dear friend and compatriot Pope John Paul II. We are of the same generation and we much prefer to build on what we have rather than demolish what we have. At the moment we have to build on the foundations of friendship and cooperation; we must consolidate ties between nations and not destroy these old ties. We belong to a group of historically oppressed nations who were traditionally subdued by the great powers. We have learnt the philosophy of enduring this with dignity but without surrendering to it.
I believe that the international situation has changed considerably. People around the world do not know what to do in order to preserve peace and political stability. The new US administration, too, hasn't got a clue on how to go about guaranteeing world peace and security. The new security situation in the world is very complex. There are countries, like Iran, that we have problems with but with whom we do not have a means of ironing out differences. In this respect, I spoke with US Secretary of State Colin Powell and with British Foreign Secretary Robin Cook. I will visit Paris soon to discuss these security matters.
If anyone would have told me two decades ago that Poland will be a member of NATO in 1999, I would have told them that they were dreaming. I was a youth when Hitler invaded Poland and I lived at the time in Warsaw, which was heavily bombarded by the Germans. In one generation everything changed. The world today witnesses many changes. Politicians could not have predicted these changes. At the moment I am very optimistic about Europe's future. The only region of Europe which is not politically stable is the Balkans. I believe that Europe managed to secure a great degree of unity. Nevertheless, in the international arena there are many festering problems. International crime, environmental concerns and health problems in Africa are issues that eventually impact us and we cannot stay aloof from them. These are the imperative issues of the 21st century. Polish foreign policy takes all these issues into account. Today, our armed forces train alongside German troops who have fought Poland for over two centuries. But things have changed, our former worst enemies are today our allies. There are also issues of poverty and wealth. One of the drawbacks of capitalism is that there is a growing gap between rich and poor and even the EU has not managed to address this issue. On the other hand, Polish troops serve as peace-keepers in places as far afield as the Golan Heights separating the Israelis from the Syrians, in Lebanon, in Korea, and in the Balkans, where some 1,000 Polish peace-keeping forces are stationed.
Poland will have general elections in September. The polls predict that the centre-left alliance, to which the current president belongs, will again win. There are important domestic issues, very pressing problems like crime and narcotics. But on the foreign policy front I can vouch that there will be no major changes in policy.
Poland has been a NATO member since 1999. We realise that Russia, with a population of 150 million, is a very close neighbour. Russia objected to Polish admission into NATO. We have negotiated with them since 1995. No Russian official visited us for two years. They were deeply concerned and angered by our decision to join NATO. I assured them that we will remain close friends of Russia despite our NATO membership. At the moment the ice is broken and Russian Foreign Minister Igor Ivanov visited us recently and I reciprocated his visit. Russia knows that we are a country of 40 million people with great economic potential. We support NATO's policy of dialogue with Russia. This matter is of vital importance to us because we are Russia's neighbour. We realise that Russia is no longer the Soviet Union, but a democratic country. We hope and trust that it shall remain so.
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